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Interview with Barbara V. Weedon

Citation

Please feel free to use the information from this transcript in any scholarly work. The full citation for this document is : Barbara V. Weedon, interview by Kathleen A. Carter, October 23, 1998, OH027, Oral History Collection, Frederick Community College, Frederick, MD.

Abstract

Kathleen Carter conducted an interview with Mrs. Barbara V. Weedon, a resident of Emmitsburg, Maryland, on Friday, October 23, 1998. In the interview Mrs. Weedon discusses her experiences growing up in Thurmont during segregation, including church life and schools, as well as her difficulties in becoming a nun because of discrimination in the Catholic church and different groups of Sisters. She also details her work experiences in Washington, D.C., and how she viewed changes, or the lack thereof, in Thurmont when she returned fifteen years later while working for the Maryland School for the Deaf and later Mount Saint Mary's College.

Transcript

KC = Kathleen Carter (interviewer)
BW = Barbara Weedon(interviewee)
RW = Richard Weedon (secondary interviewee)

KC:	This is Kathleen Carter. I am taking the Civil Rights Movement Course at Frederick Community College. The instructor is Dr. Bruce Thompson and I am speaking with Mrs. Barbara Weedon, a resident of Emmitsburg, Maryland. It is 1:00PM on Friday, October 23, 1998. We are at Mrs. Weedon's home in Emmitsburg, Maryland. [Tape cuts off at the beginning. Information excluded from tape: Barbara Weedon was born in 1934 in Washington, DC. She moved to Emmitsburg, Maryland with her grandparents when she was 5-6 years old.] Mrs. Weedon.
BW:	Do you know the house at the bottom of the hill on North Seton Avenue? It's the last house on the right, they've done a lot to it. That was my grandmother's house. Yeah, she had a very interesting life. Her husband died when she was expecting her twelfth child.
KC:	Twelfth, wow!
BW:	She struggled because she was determined she wasn't going to put her children in an orphanage. She was determined she wasn't going to ask for any assistance. So, she took in washing, she did everything, and she bought that home struggling twenty-four hours a day. Ah, I think for eight hundred dollars.
KC:	Wow! Eight hundred dollars!
BW:	We found a (indiscernible). here. So, and she, she sent the kids to St. Euphemia's School. And, ah, I think, I can't remember…
KC:	Now, was that a grade school or was that the high school?
BW:	St. Euphemia's? St. Euphemia's, that was the grade school, the catholic grade school, which would be Mother Seton now. 'Ya know, the old school across from what was the high school. And then when I came up here, I went to school there. And when I went to school, we only had, we only had the one classroom, we were only allowed, we weren't allowed to integrate in the classroom. And, 'ya wanna know the truth? I'm a devout Catholic. Most of what I saw was from the Catholic Church because we had to sit in the back of the church, our classes were separate. We weren't allowed to use the water hydrants to drink. The sister had like um, one of those filters in the classroom. And we weren't allowed to use the restrooms. They had an outhouse down in the back of the yard. And, it was my cousin and I. You know Doris VanBrinkle, her oldest son…
KC:	Yes, yes, ok.
BW:	He, we painted the house and we put a padlock on it so no transients could use it. We wanted to keep it clean. So that, was my experience with segregation, was the church.
KC:	Is that so! What, was your teacher, white?
BW:	Yes. Daughters of Charity. Yeah. Yeah, Sister Veronica.
KC:	How big was your classroom?
BW:	Two. The two of us. She had us full-time. And then, the next brother of mine came to school and then I think there were some Williams' girls, two William's girls out along the mountain, Thelma and Shirley. They came in so eventually we had four. But we were never allowed to integrate, at all.
KC:	Well in the back of the church, I mean, at St. Joe's, is that?
BW:	Yes, uh-huh.
KC:	And how long did that last?
BW:	I don't know 'cause when my, when my parents, my mother never remarried, my father remarried and he got custody of me just because of my, because of his mother had taken me when they separated and she said she wasn't going, 'ya know, she asked, but she said will you just make sure. So, my mother went along with that, 'ya know, a little twisting of, but she, she thought that was the best thing 'ya know, for me to be here in the country. So, that's, that's what we went through, we had the last rows, we even had the last three rows in the back of the church, (laughing). I guess we were the first family of the blacks 'cause we had the one closest to the altar. But when we made our first communion and we were confirmed we had to walk, 'ya know, in the back of the line.
KC:	Oh, that's horrible! That's unbelievable!
BW:	But, it's, and then when I decided then, when I decided I wanted to enter the convent I didn't want to enter the Accolades of Providence because they were a teaching order. I didn't want to teach, I wanted to do missionary work. And there was no community, it took me three years to finally find a community that would, and that, this was in the '50's.
KC:	Did you, you said you moved when your father took you, did you move from Emmitsburg back to DC?
BW:	Back to DC. My father remarried and I went back to DC, yes.
KC:	Ok, and then you went to what grade, twelfth or was it eleventh?
BW:	I went clear through high school there. When I finished high school…
KC:	Was that twelfth?
BW:	…eleventh. Uh-huh.
KC:	Ok
BW:	Yeah, because up here at that time they didn't, my grandmother sent me back to Washington because at that time when my father remarried we were, the sisters weren't sure what they were going to do with us because we had finished school. And there was no place for us to go really because St. Joe's out at the college [didn't accept blacks]. So, that's when my grandmother kind of insisted that she wanted me to go on. But, then, the following year Kenny, my cousin Kenny, then they were, they let them , then they kept 'em all in.
KC:	Ok. So, when you moved to Washington, from there you went to the convent?
BW:	Yes.
KC:	Ok. And where was that?
BW:	That was up in Graymoore, Garrison, New York, the Franciscan Sisters of the Atonement.
KC:	Ok.
BW:	And, I had gotten so many letters of rejection. In fact, a close friend of mine, she was ready for, to go to nursing school and she had been accepted. She wanted to go to St. Agnes, and then they refused her because of her race and she was very, she looked like she was white. She was refused. She wanted to go to, I think, the Sisters of Allegheny. I remember her coming to my home one day in tears because the Sisters of Allegheny had accepted her. And, they, she had everything, with, she had her pictures in it and everything sent in but her medical records and on the medical record everything was fine but she put down what race she was and they sent her a telegram saying they were sorry but they had to take girls from the area. There was no room for her.
KC:	Oh, what did she do, about?
BW:	She finally, at there, there was a nursing school up in Philadelphia, I've forgotten the name of it, Catholic, because she wanted to go to a Catholic Nursing School. So, she went on there. But, it took [Tape goes off.]
KC:	Ok, so what year did you, go into the convent?
BW:	January 1, 1953.
KC:	1953. What was that like? Did you see any kind of…
BW:	I didn't. We, well first of all it took me three years and it's interesting the way I was accepted because I had gotten so many letters of rejection, Monsignor MiltonBerg, of the Director of Vocations of the Archdiocese of Washington, he wrote around in his position and never had any luck. So, I just started to visit like some of the houses of study and do you know Washington at all? Around Catholic University there are a lot of houses of study. And I went to this Washington retreat house and fortunately the Superior was there, Sister Aloywiches and so I told her, I just said I wasn't going to waste anymore time writing letters. I just said I wanted to know right off if your community accepts it.
KC:	Good for you.
BW:	And, Negroes or blacks or whatever wanna call 'em, the gamut, and she was a saintly so recognized, she had been over in Italy during the war and that's what was so emotional, I think of what she did because she , she just worked so hard. She battled Mussolini and everything and she really upheld, 'ya know, she had an orphanage and she protected the children. Some of the stories that they tell about how her protecting them. But anyway, when I asked her, 'ya know, she thought the whole thing was ridiculous because here she had fought Mussolini. And, she was on the Counsel, so she went to Graymoore. She said, "I'll let you know." And then, I got a letter from Graymoore asking me to come for an interview.
KC:	And that was it. On your application, was it like an application for the, you said you wrote letters and got rejected for three years, I mean, was there a place there that said race or, tell me about that.
BW:	I, I just wrote and I think I put in the letter because I can't, it seems to me, I know why I put it in there because I originally applied to the Daughters of Charity (laughter)…and they said no. So, I thought, I'm going to deal with this right up front. I put it right in the letter so that's why I started to, you know, put it in the letter and they all, 'ya know, the Sisters of Holy Cross whom I worked with in Salt Lake City, they, they wanted to know what shade I was before (laughter). It's unbelievable!
KC:	What I find unbelievable, I mean, these are, these are Sisters and…
BW:	…that's the way it was.
KC:	'Ya know, I mean! (laughter) That's unbelievable!
BW:	But when I was in the convent fortunately I never had any trouble. I remember when the nuns used to come over for retreat or whatever in the summer time. 'Ya know, I think that all used to want to see who was this person. I got along very well, so very close with them. I got along very well with them.
KC:	That's great!
BW:	Never had any problem. But the church was, the church was not a leader in the beginning. I remember being with a group of nuns, we were all out in the, at school, and we were all out in the great big yard studying, like you would at the Provincial House. And all of a sudden this book went flying across the garden and this nun from Ireland said she couldn't believe what she had been reading. I guess, some of the churches, if you had a baby who hadn't been baptized and the mother who was rushing the baby to the, if it was not a black church, the priest would not [baptize], and they would refuse you Communion, too. And she couldn't believe it! (laughter). She…, I said what happened? And she said she couldn't believe it, some of the things…
KC:	Were you the only black nun at your convent?
BW:	Oh yeah, for years.
KC:	Is that right?
BW:	I was there for fifteen years and I think the last two years I think one other came.
KC:	Was that difficult, you said you were so close to them, it just?
BW:	It wasn't difficult.
KC:	It wasn't difficult?
BW:	It wasn't difficult at all. Not one bit. Utah, even in Utah I wasn't sure because Utah, the town I was assigned to, had an ordinance that the black people could not let the sun go down on them. And nobody knew I was black. These were the Mormons, they've changed. But, I, and I was, I taught high school - Ethics and I was close to my high school students and one day, one of the, some of the, couple of the boys I was very close to, all those kids, they came in and they were being inducted in some organization and one of the them had a black face and I, 'ya know, they were just kind of laughing and teasing and I thought to myself I've got to tell these kids because I'm so close to them I feel like I have to tell them. So, I told that class. I'll never forget them. I told, I told the class and they kind of just shrugged it off 'ya know. You know there um, there weren't repercussions from those kids and then my, that was the second period, the third period one of the kids came in bouncing, one of the girls I was close to, she sat in the front row - "you have something to tell us?" (Laughter) I never, never had any, any trouble.
KC:	Did the parents, did you ever have any trouble from the parents?
BW:	'Not really. There were a couple of parents that I think, I felt they were a little bit on the edge. But I was so close to their kids 'cause you know when you're black we were taught you had to work twice as hard. And, I was close to the students. I was well respected because I handled the high school classes which were not easy, 'ya know. We had them on a daily basis. So, and then the pastor, the pastor was behind me. He didn't know either. And then when he found out, I told him and he had been, he had been a pastor in St. Ambrows Parish in Salt Lake City, with the Daughters of Charity and I said, I said, "'ya know how close we are to the Daughters of Charity here in Utah" but I told him I said "'ya know, they were the first order I applied to" and he couldn't believe it.
KC:	That's unbelievable to me too. I mean, I can't…
BW:	…but it's different now. 'Ya know, it doesn't, I don't regret one minute of it because I'm happy, I guess, with who I am and what I am. I don't regret it at all.
KC:	Right, right. Well, what, what did you do after the convent? What happened then?
BW:	I came, I left and went back to Washington. And then, I took a test for the Library of Congress and I passed. In fact, they told me that I made, I got the highest test score and I got a position right away. But I was bored. I was so bored with that. So, someone I had met knew of a, her sister I guess, was over at the Maryland School for the, not the Maryland School for the Deaf, that was it, the elementary school and she was, she was doing her graduate teaching there. And they had a class that had been through two certified teachers of the deaf and they didn't know what they were going to do with that class. So, she said "why don't you apply for the job." And I said, "I don't have a degree in deaf education." So, I applied anyway. And, the Director of the School said "if you can keep them in the classroom until June" he said "I'll be very, very grateful." And I kept them for a year and a half and got them integrated.
KC:	Is that right? Tell me a little bit about that. What happened?
BW:	Well, that's a whole other story. I think, ignorance is bliss. I think had I been a certified teacher that, I don't think those kids would have made it. Because I, I don't know why, the teachers, they had wonderful teachers, but these kids came from troubled homes. There were seven of them. They had smashers and chair bangers and but I think that I tried to, I know what I tried to do, was to try to teach them social skills. Because if they could add, if everybody could add two and two and be happy about it, that was fine. If I said, "what's two and three" and you answered the question, then they would all beat you up. If you didn't know it and said you didn't know it, then you would beat them up because you figured they were laughing at you. So, so, I just spent a lot of time just enforcing rules, just consistently trying to get them to, to get along with one another and to be able to do the simplest things that they could all do and then we would you know, go from there. Well, they, they, they did very well. Dr. Baranci, instructor, the schoolteacher, said "you're never going to get out of that classroom." He said, "I'm going to give you a graduate student to help you out." And I said "I don't really want one," "but if you insist."
KC:	(Laughter)
BW:	And so they would come in and see the kids peacefully, all doing very simple mathematics and grammar and reading and so forth, so they would want to take them to the next level. So, she says, "why don't you do this with them?" And I said, "they're not ready." And she says, "Well, I kinda think they are, why don't I try it?" So, 'ya know, you're not going to argue with them, they see them as…. So, I said, "ok, you can have them for ten minutes, I'm going to run downstairs." I didn't go downstairs She tried to teach them and they started screaming. (Laughter) She never bothered to do it again. And then I had another teacher. She came in on, he said "you just need a break 'cause you can't get away from those kids." And every Wednesday she would take them for an hour. And she said, "they are ready for subtraction." And I said, "no they're not Marge." I said, "just do, this is want I'm leaving for you to do." Well, she did that for a couple of week and then the third week…(laughter)
KC:	(Laughter)
BW:	…I'm in the teacher's room working away and in they come yelling and crying. This is my sign. And they said, "come back." She came in the room crying.
KC:	Oh, is that right?
BW:	Because they put her out. Because she tried to teach. (laughter) They weren't ready for it. By the time they were ready for little social skills, and knew how to get along with one another, and they got back into that.
KC:	Was that, was that, were they, were your students white?
BW:	They were mixed.
KC:	Mixed.
BW:	It was Gallaudet, 'ya know… Galludet Univer….
KC:	No, I don't.
BW:	It was Gallaudet College at the time. It's the only liberal arts college for the hearing impaired in the country. And, on the campus they had, they had a preschool, an elementary, a middle school, a high school, and the whole works. And I was in the elementary school and that's, we had all, 'ya know, all comers. It was government run. Well, it was a private school but it was funded by the government. I never had, I never had any trouble, other than the church.
KC:	That's interesting. The church…(laughter)
BW:	(Laughter) But it's I think that's, I don't know, I have no regrets really when it comes to the church.
KC:	Right, right. When did you leave Washington?
BW:	I got married in '76, I guess.
KC:	'76. Now, did you move, did you meet your husband up here or how did that, where did you meet your husband?
BW:	Oh, I had known my husband, my husband was married to my father's sister, my aunt. And then when she died, he was a good Catholic, and my father, the whole family started to set us up, and I said "well…" 'Ya know, I didn't think, so it was more or less through the prodding of the family. They said you're both good Catholics because I was, I had been in, part of the convent for I guess nine years. And 'um, 'ya know the dating situation then was totally different than from what it was then when I was a teenager. And I just, 'ya know, didn't really couldn't go along with the….
KC:	Did you meet him, I mean, were you still living in Washington?
BW:	Uh-huh.
KC:	Ok, ok.
BW:	Yes, yes, I had an, my apartment in Washington. And he was up here. He lived here.
KC:	Oh, ok, he was in Emmitsburg?
BW:	Yes.
KC:	Ok.
BW:	Yes.
KC:	Ok. So, you started dating and then did you move up here then?
BW:	Yes. And then we went to his family home down, the one on North Seton Avenue, the one.... And then, he asked me [to marry him], and then after we were married then we got this one.
KC:	Ok, ok. When you returned back to Emmitsburg, did you notice anything that really changed or I mean, with the back of the church or any of that?
BW:	Oh yes. It was all, you know the blacks and whites, they were integrated. You could sit where you wanted to in church. 'Yeah, it was different. Years ago in the movie theatre, 'ya know, we were little, we had to sit in the back. And of course, that was years ago. I came back here in '76 and it was a whole lot different. It was, very different.
KC:	So, you were, you were in the convent for did you say fifteen?
BW:	Fifteen.
KC:	Fifteen years, ok. Ok. So they didn't, was, what about the Daughters of Charity? They were totally integrated then, I assume.
BW:	Oh what, by the time I left?
KC:	'Yeah.
BW:	'Yeah, they were. Yes, I guess, I think they were. I don't think they have that many 'ah blacks even now. But I think they have some since then. But at the time I applied they didn't.
KC:	That's unbelievable to me! (laughter)
BW:	(Laughter) And now my husband and people say "Now you know that, 'ya know, they depend on you so much, Mother Seton!
KC:	The Seton Center!
BW:	Actually, Sister called me today, she was, she says since you can't come up today for the lunch or the mass, do you think you come in for an hour or something. I told her I couldn't.
KC:	Oh! Tell me about, how long have you been doing that? That's interesting!
BW:	Since I retired from the Mount.
KC:	When did you, tell me a little about that, about working at the Mount.
BW:	Well, when I got married and came up here then I applied, at the Maryland School for the Deaf. And then I worked there until what? From '76 to '80, I guess. Then, I got tired of that highway. And, I applied to the Mount and I got a job as, as a faculty secretary, nine/ten month job, and I thought this will be easy, this will be fun. And I started there in August and in October the President of the College had been looking for a secretary. I didn't apply for it because then in the back of my mind, I thought "I'll never", 'ya know, I just didn't know. I said, "I'm not used to applying for a job and not getting it so I'm not even going to apply." But then he, he offered the job to me.
KC:	That's terrific!
BW:	So, I worked for him for thirteen years and then interim for a year and then, the new one for two years, so I was out there for sixteen years.
KC:	There was never any kind of, did you notice any kind of prejudice or anything when you came back at all, I mean…?
BW:	No, no.
KC:	…even walking down the street or the people around here? Did you notice anything when you first got back?
BW:	I, I did but it was subtle.
KC:	Ok.
BW:	More, more subtle.
KC:	Ok, then as it had been before?
BW:	Yes. Because I think most of the, I don't know, I just think it was a little more subtle. 'Ya know, I think, I don't know whether, how some of the ladies didn't know how to take me because, I guess, in the past, I don't know. You know, they have, I don't know, it's kinda hard to say. It was just very subtle. But, I haven't had any problems. We stay to ourselves a lot, we do.
KC:	Right. Now, from what I understand, you don't have to go into this if you don't want to, but, was your husband the first black man to get accepted into the Knights of Columbus?
BW:	Yes.
KC:	That is interesting! In Maryland? Is that right?
BW:	He was.
KC:	What year was that?
BW:	I don't know. I'll have to ask him. But I know that if it hadn't been for, do you know Bernie Boyle who had the grocery store?
KC:	Yes, yes. That's the grandfather, right? Or, the father of Mike?
BW:	Yes.
KC:	Ok.
BW:	If it hadn't been for Mr. Boyle, he's the one who got Richard in because there was someone, Mr. Boyle said, who said they'd the leave the Knights if they wouldn't let Richard in.
KC:	Is that right?
BW:	'Yeah and Mr. Boyle said he would leave, he's friends with him.
KC:	Oh, that's great!
BW:	We're so close to the Boyle family.
KC:	That's nice! So, that was probably I guess around the sixties, maybe, fifties?
BW:	No, it was later than that.
KC:	Oh, was it really?
BW:	I don't, "Richard, Richard"
RW:	"Yeah?"
BW:	What year was you accepted into the Knights of Columbus? You remember?
RW:	1963.
KC:	1963.
BW:	Uh-huh, 'yeah.
KC:	Ok. I just have one more question. 'How do you feel about race relations today? I mean, do you think, I don't know, you think everything's, it's definitely improved, obviously. Do you think there's a lot more, there's more to go or do you think everything's, everything's ok or do you think, how do you feel?
BW:	I… [RW walks in]
RW:	Hi, how are you?
KC:	Fine, how are you?
RW:	Pretty good, thanks!
BW:	I…
RW:	'63
BW:	…I don't know, I used to think more, being older, not having to worry about children… I wouldn't raise a black child in Emmitsburg.
KC:	Is that right? Ok.
BW:	I would not. I told my husband when we got married I said, I would not. Of course, I was in my forties, but I said I would not, I would not do it.
KC:	That's sad.
BW:	It is.
KC:	It is.
BW:	I just because I, you're always a minority and I think sometimes, some of them, if they are the minority they feel, they let themselves feel intimidated. And, see I wouldn't, I wouldn't want that for my child. I would want them to feel as if they were right up there with everybody else.
KC:	Absolutely, which they should.
BW:	Yes.
KC:	Right, right.
BW:	My first and only encounter with the Klu Klux Klan came down in Thurmont. We went down, we went down to Thurmont one Saturday. And there was a nice little dress shop down there and I went along with my husband. He was going to the hardware store.
KC:	Ok, right across from the F&M Bank?
BW:	Yes. And I saw them, for the first time in my life I saw the Ku Klux Klan and I said to him, "I'm not going to the dress store, let's just get on out of here." And he said, "You go on in, I'll sit and wait for you." I went in, stayed five minutes and turned around and came out because the Klan didn't scare me as much as the indifference to the people in the store.
KC:	Oh, is that right?
BW:	That terrified me!
KC:	Really?
BW:	Because the Klan is the Klan and you've, you've, I don't know why, that just seemed just so scary, not the Klan alone but here the people…because when they came to Emmitsburg I didn't know they were in Emmitsburg until I went to Jubilee one day and here were all these, 'ah people, you could hear them talking. You know how you go to Jubilee, you go to Jubilee and stay and they were talking. But they thought it was so terrible the Klan. I said, "What are you, what's so terrible, what's going on?" That's when they said the Klan was on the corner. And as soon as the 12:00 time, the point of time to stop, I found out that Bob Preston was right there to get rid of them. And Frank Davis was right there. There was a whole different atmosphere in Emmitsburg. But I remember Guy Baker, our next door neighbor, we were out on our patio that evening, and he came over, and he spoke and he said "Everything is so pretty here, you ought to take a picture and send it to House and Gardens."
KC:	(Laughter)
BW:	I just, I said, "No, I don't want anybody to know I'm here!" That was my reaction. And he said, "Why?" And I told him. And he called the mayor. And the mayor called and apologized. But that was scary to see…
KC:	I bet!
BW:	…the indifference of the people because that's what happened in Nazi, Germany. 'Ya know? I don't know how I feel about racial relations today... I think, but I might be one of the past, but I don't, in some ways it's better, but in some ways, I think it could be, I think things could get worse, 'ya know, it's scary!
KC:	That is scary!
BW:	'Ya know of the, with the rise, with the reaction. There's so much pent-up anger. And I think, but I don't think it's helping the race, it's justified, because I think if the younger people had to go through with what the older people went through, they couldn't take it.
KC:	They couldn't take it, they'd give up. Absolutely.
BW:	They couldn't begin to take it.
KC:	Absolutely. Thank you very much Mrs. Weedon.
BW:	Oh, you're welcome!
KC:	This is terrific! It was wonderful.
BW:	One thing I'd like to, one little note just on the side, and it just dawned on me, yesterday I was thinking. 'I, in Emmitsburg, when the war was over, I was here that summer and all the kids were all going to the movies. And Joe Houck who, you probably don't remember him, he was…
KC:	The Houcks, the Houcks sound familiar.
BW:	…he was running to ring the church bell. And um, then right next to the movies was the fire hall. The old movie, and all the kids were there and they were giving them turns to ring the bell and we stood there, we didn't even ask. I think that hurt because I had four uncles who were so, they served in the service and they all were uh, non-commissioned officers, that's what you called them. They all progressed and they all did so well. But it was very hurtful because I loved bells and everybody was celebrating but the…
KC:	And you weren't allowed to do this?
BW:	We didn't even, ask, they didn't even invite us, we didn't ask, because we were afraid that they would say no.
KC:	That is sad! Yeah.
BW:	Well, I don't know whether that helps you or not?
KC:	Oh, absolutely!