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Interview with Mary Fortsine

Citation

Please feel free to use the information from this transcript in any scholarly work. The full citation for this document is : Mary Fortsine, interview by Nancy Reichard, October 23, 1998, OH028, Oral History Collection, Frederick Community College, Frederick, MD.

Abstract

Mary Fortsine is a woman who lived in a small industrial town in Pennsylvania, Mount Union, during the civil rights movement. She briefly discusses her experiences growing up, however in many ways she feels she did not experience the Civil Rights Movement until she was much older. The town was segregated, however her parents raised her to not see any differences and she lived most of her childhood around white families. In combination of her childhood and experiences at an integrated school, she felt no difference between white and black until the death of King when she was in high school. Fortsine also addresses what she feels are the motivations and drives behind racially motivated actions and hate groups. She talks about hate and hate crimes in the past and more recently making reference to the Ku Klux Klan and what she feels are it's reasons for existing.

Transcript

NR= Nancy Reichard (interviewer)
MF= Mary Fortsine (interviewee)

NR:	Good evening, my name is Nancy Reichard and I am interviewing Mary Fortsine. I have Ms. Fortsine here to talk with me about the civil rights movement and since I am white and you are black, a black perspective of how you feel things were and if you could please give me your history I'd appreciate it.
MF:	Do you want me to first start with my history?
NR:	Sure.
MF:	I was born in a small town in Pennsylvania, Mount Union, Pennsylvania. Our town's basic economics, back then, was the brick industry. Because of the asbestos bricks and the other kind of bricks that were made there, a lot of the southern people who came from Virginia, North Carolina, West Virginia would come to Mount Union because it was a place where you could make a lot of money in a short amount of time. So what developed in Mount Union was a pocket of a lot of the southerners and when they went through that migration period a lot of the early blacks came to Mount Union because of the availability of money. When that happened, as in many towns, in the south, if you, and even still today when you go through a lot of the southern towns, you find black pockets and our town also was one that had that black pocket. Because my father though was basically a hard working man who refused to let in anything even a race settle him. I never lived in the black pocket town. I always lived amongst white people because I think life truly proves that sometimes money is more an equalizer than anything else. A lot of people believe it's education, but I think money is a better one. So I never truly grew up with a lot of black people. I was aware of some of the problems, some of the situations, but they were problems that I personally didn't encounter. I probably didn't really realize a lot of the civil rights history until the death of Martin Luther King, Jr. And the reason that I realized it at that point was because we were practicing a talent show at school that evening and I remember one of the young African American men coming in and saying they have killed Martin Luther King, Jr. we can't be friends anymore. And with that thought, I star… I wondered why couldn't we be friends, who they were, and why they felt that such a gentleman could be a threat. Questions that I then took home and ask my parents about. I have a problem with titles. If you just noticed I used the title "African American" and you used the term "black". During the civil rights movement Martin Luther King used the term "Negro", because that was the term of the time. At J.C. [Hagerstown Junior College] I have done several presentations on part of their minority program that they have. Minority Enrichmental Awareness, and I explained there once that I don't think we can reduce people to colors. So the black/whites issue and that we have to be opposites, total polar opposites bothers me because we are basically human beings and the color problem bothers me and that's what truly bothered me about this young man's statement. If one person does this then I can't like them because we become the polar opposites. So I went home and shared my concerns with my mother, I found out a lot about who Martin Luther King Jr. was and some of the problems that had been encountered. Probably… Lets see, on the 20th Anniversary of his walk towards Washington I made it a point to go so that I could feel some of the aura of what was going on at the time as well as the simulation. So I went to that. After I went there I went to my father's birthplace, which was very interesting because that was the first time I got to see the true separation of races. Um, he's from a small town in Virginia called Gordansville. And you literally walk over railroad tracks when you go into a subsection of a community where there are no faces that are not African American. And that was kind of interesting also to realize that there is such a polar difference. Now by saying that I don't want to, that I didn't want to be opposites is not in any way, I hope, represent that I don't realize that we are not all one people. Everyone found Rodney King's statement "why can't we all get along" to be not funny, but embarrassing, because it is a statement in its naive, naivete` ?
NR:	Uh huh.
MF:	Is also sad because it is so true. We can't all get along. It's been tried, it just doesn't work. I know that there is biases, I know that there is prejudices I know that there is fear among people who are different for one reason or another. So, I've always recognized problems. Even in saying that I don't want to recognize or that I'm not into "we're black, we're white" I also realize that I have a rich heritage as an African American which is what I choose to be called and it's a heritage that I am very proud of. Last evening on TV, I don't know if you watched it, but the 48 hours did a presentation on hate.
NR:	Hum.
MF:	And the one segment dealt with the new leader of the Ku Klux Klan who is, um, banning together again a group of people, and he made one statement "I am proud to be white, if that makes me racist then I accept that title." I can understand him saying that I am proud to be white because I also am proud to be an African American; I have a rich heritage, which I refuse to let anyone rob me of. My parents taught me early, even though I didn't learn about the disparity because they never wanted me to be robbed of who I was, I learned early about African American culture at home. I learned African American culture as part of Sunday school each week, and that's why I have taught African American history because I know it, it's personal and it's something that I do know. The civil rights movement, because I know this is really what you wanted to talk about, again I am going to bounce it off of a statement that I heard last evening on 48 hours. The new leader of the Klan said one of the reasons that he was dissatisfied with the civil rights movement was because, using his term, "blacks wanted rights and they took to many." I don't know if that's possible. The history behind the whole population of African Americans coming to America tells us that for one of one reason whether all white traders went over and stole people from their land or if some African Americans sold other African Americans to this land we found innocence in boats, treated as animals, who came and worked honorably. Who once it was realized that not for really a humanistic point of view, but because it was an economic point of view it was better to have a war so that as part of it you could free people who were promised a certain amount of money for the money, a certain amount of money for the work they had done, which is what we are promised, even Biblically "A man is worthy of his hire." They were promised something that was never truly given. The civil rights movement, whenever Martin Luther King went to Washington to march, he said, "we are now presenting the check that has not been cashed at this point" and I don't know of any of his claims at that time were unreasonable. People should be treated as people. If you work for whatever reason you work, you should be paid for it. African American's have a right to a certain amount of pride in the development of America.
NR:	Uh huh.
MF:	They helped forge it. When no other class of people were physically able to till the land, the African American proved worthy of doing so. So I think they did have a right to and still today to be, treated as human beings. I think that a certain respect for work done is due. And the way that Martin Luther King presented himself I don't think was to be non-threatening. Even though I realize that it was, because he asked for just certain rights and privileges and the rights and privileges he asked for was even though historically because of, again, economic reasons so that the south would not have so much control over the country instead of making someone 3/5 of the person that they should indeed be considered a person. That you should not rob a person of the humanity because of color.
NR:	Or sex.
MF:	Or sex, yes, uh huh.
NR:	Now I really, I mean, I know he's known for, "I have a dream", statement but in, his speech he also talked about how that we're all to be equal whether, you know, it's white, that we're all to be treated the same whether you're white or black we're all to be treated the same.
MF:	Yes and he mentioned other ethnicities…
NR:	Yes
MF:	as well.
NR:	Jewish, I mean
MF:	Because he realized that…
NR:	It's not…
MF:	a person is a person….
NR:	Right
MF:	is a person.
NR:	It doesn't make any difference what their well, religion, race or origin is, and I guess now, with, with this, um, death of this homosexual guy at Shepherd [College] it's the same thing starting over again that the African American culture had to go through it seems like now. I mean they're doing the same awful hatred things, um, that they are still doing the same with this Ku Klux Klan I just can not believe that there are people ignorant enough to, to buy into that but evidently there are.
MF:	I do not know if the word is ignorance I think that it is more fear. Even this past summer whenever the gentleman in Jasper, Texas was dragged for miles and miles and miles. Fear of the unknown is the reason for a lot of why we hate. It would be nice if we could all sit around at a table and share so that there is no amen. But I don't think that's practical. We assume, and one of the points again that was mentioned last evening and historically is true why we have a Ku Klux Klan, whenever we are in economic distress we find a lot of hate groups that flourish at that time because you have to blame somebody for your plight. You have to.
NR:	Uh huh.
MF:	And in the slave day we had classes. We had the masters, we had the overseers, who were in a different class, we had your African Americans and we also had the class of the poor white trash…
NR:	Uh huh.
MF:	That were sometimes a little bit lower than the slaves and who were trying to become better than the slaves…
NR:	Uh huh.
MF:	and that group of people especially gave you your Klan because what do you do now. And there, and there's that question, "What do you do now"?
NR:	Well, even, in, with your history that you know, even in the slavery wasn't there a class in that the ones that were in the house...
MF:	Uh huh.
NR:	were…were…
MF:	And that was based on, a lot of that was based on color because of the blending of races. Um, the lighter slaves, generally those who had coupled with…
NR:	Uh huh.
MF:	their masters were given rights in the home, um, they were the cooks, they did not have to go into the fields. The darker slaves were always treated poorly, more poorly than the lighter slaves. And that's something that African Americans have dealt with the question of "because I am whiter than you I can do this," because our society still grants that basis. Um, even the African American women who have come close to or have won, Vanessa Williams, did win her Miss USA title and then lost it, they have all been light black women and that is granted a certain acceptability.
NR:	I think that's why the one model now who is from Sudan has been very good for the, the African American children because she is very, very dark.
MF:	Yes.
NR:	She is darker than, than most African Americans are.
MF:	Uh huh, Uh huh, Because she's African.
NR:	Uh huh.
MF:	Yeah.
NR:	Uh huh.
MF:	And Spike Lee. I do not know if you have ever watched any of his films. I am not saying that he is the best of film-makers, but he does try to give an honest representation and his first and his second film, School Days, he deals with a class of twin colors.
NR:	Have you seen the movie Beloved?
MF:	I have not seen Beloved; I've read the book.
NR:	Oh, I didn't read the book. I wished I would have before I saw the movie.
MF:	Uh huh.
NR:	I did see the movie and I, it was, it was very good, I think everyone should see it no matter what color or religion.
MF:	I listen to an African American station out of Washington, DC in the mornings on my way to work and one of the points that was made last week when it came out was that because of who Oprah Winfery is and her acceptance among everyone that she will have people openly dialoguing about slavery. If anybody else would have made that movie it would not have been as successful. So I'm glad she did make the movie.
NR:	And I, and I agree. And I think, the, the last of the movie where, the grandmother, they reflect back to her and her talking about that you're, you know, to love your hands, you're to love everything about you, but you have to love your heart. And it doesn't really make any difference how awful your background was, how horrid it was, you have got to love yourself and love, love your heart to, to, to be a person, to be a good person. I thought it was a really excellent movie and, in fact, I think probably the schools oughta use it as a teaching tool. Particularly, I'm sure the African American, like, I was speaking with your son, he doesn't remember, you know, much of the civil rights thing either, but like yourself you don't know about the slavery, and I mean, it really shows the horror that these people had to go through. I don't see how anybody who has any humanity to them at all can not know that, that was wrong.
MF:	The black wax museum in Baltimore. The first section that you go through is a simulation of a slave ship and you get to realize some of the crampedness, the pain, the agony and it had to have been a character building experience which is not what we realize about it. The movie that Steven Spielberg did not too long ago, Amistad, was not as critically received and I think it was because of who he was folks will see what we were going through.
NR:	Uh huh, now, does, when you grew up did you go to integrated schools then?
MF:	Yes, and because of my intelligence I was always though, even though I went to an integrated school, I was always the only black in a classroom, the only African American represented there. That was going to by my way out of, um, any prejudice, because I was bright, and that was a, according to my parents education was a great equalizer.
NR:	Did you have brothers and sisters?
MF:	No I was an only child.
NR:	Well I went to school in the south and I didn't realize until after I moved up here that I was in a segregated school really. And I guess when I started taking violin it was at, at the black school and my parents have been so like yours that, that colors didn't make any difference , but Mama said she, she might have gone too far one way because I tried to be... If a black child, you know, was, was mean to me I wouldn't do anything at all... Whereas if a white child was I would, would say something back (laughter). But, I still think that, that was a much better, I still think that was a much better way of growing up than, than growing up hating people because of the color of their skin. And when I moved here, I guess they weren't, segregated schools, except that they segregated it by the district thing so that all the African Americans went pretty much to one school and not the other. I am glad now that the, the neighborhoods are changing so that the, they can't, but it's not, it's not as easy to do, to do that.
MF:	Some historians will, suggest that if Martin Luther King, Jr., had just wanted certain rights then it might have been okay to let him live. But because he also wanted the economic stability to become truly equal that he had to die. And I agree with you I once made a statement sarcastically yet, but, relatively truthful that I never experienced segregation because of who I was but economically there was certain places I could not go. So I was discriminated against in certain ways and that still is true. Comparably that I…
NR:	Uh huh, and I think economic, I think you're right that there's more with that almost now than there is the color. But yet if you don't give color the opportunity at the same job it's still going to reflect back to being the same thing. I just know that, you know, there's, like you said because the economic times with the Ku Klux Klan they don't want, you know, if an African American gets that job, and it's he only got it because he's African American because of the quota thingys, which I think they've gotten rid of now.
MF:	Constitutionally I think they're wrong. I have never been an component of affirmative action. I don't think anybody who truly wants civil rights is. And as I say that statement I noticed that I put the qualifier truly on there, because I know that Jesse Jackson does believe in affirmative action but there it is in the whole affirmative action, philosophy a subset that you are not truly equal to me because I have to give you a handout. That is also why I dislike liberals because liberals also believe that I am in want of, in need of something that they have to give me. I more honor and respect a Ku Klux Klan person who believes that because I am equal that he needs to fear me, he or she needs to fear me. But, I don't need a handout because of my ethnicity. I am more than capable. So I also don't believe in affirmative action. I think it's a slap in the face.
NR:	Do you think that the African Americans that didn't grow up the way that you did, that are not as bright as you need affirmative action to be able to have the quality.
MF:	No I think if, no if you provide anybody with an educational opportunity they can achieve. So if, if Martin Luther King would have got, really what he wanted was, I mean, basically…
NR:	How it started was that they wanted segregation of the buses and everything to stop and the schools.
MF:	Uh huh. Yes, and I know he [Martin Luther King] truly didn't believe in this and many African Americans today are going back to it the separate but equal. If truly it had been separate and equal then affirmative action would not have even been necessary. But there was no such thing. It was immense term to put in place. But the separation was there but the quality of materials was no where near equal.
NR:	And that's the reason they were able to change it cuz they could prove that they, they, there was not equal.
MF:	Uh huh, because it is not and I don't think even Martin Luther King wanted this. I don't know if it is truly the dream of all African Americans to be, integrated into white society and to white communities. I don't. There's a certain demand for assimilation in integration that I don't know if everyone finds attractive. And that's true of all cultures. Whenever you look at the native American what was done to them is they had to become better people, they had to change their hair styles, their dress, the children were taken from their parents to go to Indian schools. They were given new names. It truly was almost genocide because many of them lost their cultures, they could not, they were beaten if they spoke their languages.
NR:	Well, I really thank you for giving me this interview, it made for a very interesting discussion.
MF:	Well I don't even know the framework of what you're doing so I don't know if I've been helpful.
NR:	You have been. That's all.